Tuesday, May 19, 2015
Sunday, May 17, 2015
Thor Hammers on the Poor
(Guest post by @SlagOffTwits from Storify)
Actually RE + storage is THE most expensive electricity option. It is strictly a boutique or prestige item, like a Tesla or a Rolex. There are better, much less expensive options. It would take massive subsidies to move them into the residential market in any scale.
Well, we certainly agree on this one point. FIT has been a nightmare Ontario can't wake from...
One OR the other, not of... stupid fingers... We get to the logical fallacy part of the ideological argument, false dichotomy in this case. Why does it have to be FIT or carbon tax? It could be something else, or neither. The logical response to a challenge is to examine whether or not a solution is needed, and if so which is the best. If action IS warranted, a cost/benefit analysis helps determine the best course of action.
Non sequitur
No, I am wary of solutions that are worse than problems. That's why analysts exist. That's why we have insurance. That's why risk assessment and abatement is a growing field.
A simply bizarre statement that again highlights the partisan blinders in use... Wind and solar are the least effective and most expensive solutions in almost all circumstances. And require backup generation at idle. Just try heating your house with wind and solar on those loooong, still -40F northern nights. And forget about using them to power your car to drive somewhere warm.
Don't answer to my point. Go for the redirection ad hom...
Well this confirms what I just said about "ideological position". You aren't giving reasons. You aren't weighing costs vs benefits. You aren't considering resource allocation. You are just stating something must be, and damn any other considerations. This is the very definition of dogma. And I JUST stated in the previous tweet that this isn't taking into consideration human needs. I guess people can fuck right off when dogma demands.
When you are too lazy or incompetent to back an ideological brain fart with evidence and sound argument, ALWAYS go for the insult.
Corollary to Godwin's Law...
Notice the clever use of hashtag to invite dogpile.
@MSR_Future I don't understand what one has to do with the other. FIT is just a subsidy designed to get RE producers on grid. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Yes but that is only good up to a point. We need supply to match demand, RE needs storage.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future Then you are advocating twice the subsidy for less power. Frankly, that is ridiculous. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
Actually RE + storage is THE most expensive electricity option. It is strictly a boutique or prestige item, like a Tesla or a Rolex. There are better, much less expensive options. It would take massive subsidies to move them into the residential market in any scale.
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 No I advocate zero subsidy & a tax on carbon to be paid to the poorest in society.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future FIT is a subsidy. Storage won't be adopted w/o subsidy, and generates nothing. This makes power MORE expensive... @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Power should be more expensive, then low CO2 power sources can compete with fossil, driven by the market.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
This is the basis of the whole argument... that somehow more expensive power is better. Yet we KNOW that one of the primary reasons for the developed world's rapid advances is cheap energy, and one of the primary reasons the developing world hasn't caught up is the lack of cheap energy.
@MSR_Future A tax on carbon quite increases the price of EVERYTHING. And necessitates a bureacracy for $$ redistribution. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 True but then so does FIT so we should pay carbon tax to the poor. pic.twitter.com/K6RvlnT6Tn
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future You are talking pure nonsense. Cheap, abundant, reliable power is the very underpinning of wealth and progress. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 FIT is bureaucracty at it's worst, the system has fails to reduce CO2, entrenches fossil & increases cost
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
Well, we certainly agree on this one point. FIT has been a nightmare Ontario can't wake from...
@MSR_Future You are implying it must be one of the other. There are other choices. Making things more expensive and difficult >> @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
One OR the other, not of... stupid fingers... We get to the logical fallacy part of the ideological argument, false dichotomy in this case. Why does it have to be FIT or carbon tax? It could be something else, or neither. The logical response to a challenge is to examine whether or not a solution is needed, and if so which is the best. If action IS warranted, a cost/benefit analysis helps determine the best course of action.
@MSR_Future >> to administer isn't a sensible solution. This isn't difficult. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 True but if it is not dispatchable it is worthless, detrimental even..
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future What are you talking about? "Dispatchable"? Detrimental? @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Look up these words if you do not understand them
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future I know what they mean. Cheap energy isn't detrimental. Ever. And "dispatchable" makes no sense in this context. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Ask anyone of grid if they have storage, ask them how much value they put on consistent power
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
Non sequitur
@MSR_Future Are you implying what is good for unreachable cabins in the woods is good for everyone? @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 You seem blind to the problems, are you merely a solar cheer leader?
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
No, I am wary of solutions that are worse than problems. That's why analysts exist. That's why we have insurance. That's why risk assessment and abatement is a growing field.
@MSR_Future What could POSSIBLY lead you to this conclusion? I have EXPLICITLY stated I oppose subsidies and FIT. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future That automatically makes me opposed to industrial PV. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Not implying stating, Wind & solar power are similar wherever we are, it's called weather!
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
A simply bizarre statement that again highlights the partisan blinders in use... Wind and solar are the least effective and most expensive solutions in almost all circumstances. And require backup generation at idle. Just try heating your house with wind and solar on those loooong, still -40F northern nights. And forget about using them to power your car to drive somewhere warm.
@MSR_Future Yeah, that's the statement that says you are a waste of time. Bye. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 All I know is you knock ideas & have none of your own.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future We don't need ideas based on discredited ideologies. We need to first understand what problems exist, THEN fit @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future AFFORDABLE solutions to the problems. Energy does more than ANYTHING to lift standards of living. Cheap energy 1st. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Are you a climate change denier?
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
Don't answer to my point. Go for the redirection ad hom...
@MSR_Future Simply inventing "solutions" in search of a problem and forcing them into production when not efficient is nuts. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Are you a climate change denier?
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future No. Are you an ideologist? @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Ok so wate do you mean "inventing "solutions" in search of a problem"
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future You didn't answer, but one sided conversations are the norm when ideologies are concerned. So I'll answer yours: @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future You stated "RE needs storage". This is a solution to a problem we don't have. We need more cheap power... @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future ...not expensive storage for expensive power that most of the world can't afford. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future You then say you advocate zero subsidy. Who is buying this expensive power and storage when there r cheaper options?@doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future Then "power should be more expensive" so low CO2 can compete "in the market". So you aren't trying to help the poor. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future You are trying to create MORE poverty, and artificially price conventional power out of the market. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future This is an ideological position that puts the needs of humans, indeed their very lives, subservient to your dogma. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 We must eliminate CO2. You seem to have a different agenda.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
Well this confirms what I just said about "ideological position". You aren't giving reasons. You aren't weighing costs vs benefits. You aren't considering resource allocation. You are just stating something must be, and damn any other considerations. This is the very definition of dogma. And I JUST stated in the previous tweet that this isn't taking into consideration human needs. I guess people can fuck right off when dogma demands.
@MSR_Future Ideological BS. I don't have an agenda that revolves around keeping people poor, or creating more poverty. @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Is this the new line for climate change deniers?
You confuse ideology with science.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
When you are too lazy or incompetent to back an ideological brain fart with evidence and sound argument, ALWAYS go for the insult.
@MSR_Future Have you EVER met someone that denies climate changes? This is a serious question (that I again doubt you'll answer) @doyleclan1
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@SlagOffTwits @doyleclan1 Good bye denier I am done. You cannot even admit what you are.
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
Corollary to Godwin's Law...
@MSR_Future Coward. I answered. You didn't. I refer you to the question you didn't answer: @doyleclan1
https://t.co/lid26YL2ol
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
Is there anything worse than a #Climatechange denier? Sure a denier that tries to obfuscate their denial https://t.co/WYx9eNQcWL
— Thor (@MSR_Future) May 16, 2015
Notice the clever use of hashtag to invite dogpile.
@MSR_Future How about someone that makes accusations w/o evidence? Actually I'd guess you approve of that. You haven't presented any yet.
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
@MSR_Future ...although it IS funny that you linked to a tweet that, again, you didn't answer.
— Fallor Ergo Sum (@SlagOffTwits) May 16, 2015
Monday, April 20, 2015
New Paper Uses the Lindzen, Choi 2011 "Iris-Effect" and gets Stunning Reality
A new paper was published today in Nature Geoscience titled "Missing iris effect as a possible cause of muted hydrological change and high climate sensitivity in models", co-written by Bjorn Stevens who seems to be interested in why the models run so hot.
That is a complete understatement. Many readers will be familiar with the 'tropics troposphere of doom' such as this:
With the Iris Effect applied 100%, models get MUCH closer to reality:
From the abstract we have:
A controversial hypothesis suggests that the dry and clear regions of the tropical atmosphere expand in a warming climate and thereby allow more infrared radiation to escape to space. This so-called iris effect could constitute a negative feedback that is not included in climate models. We find that inclusion of such an effect in a climate model moves the simulated responses of both temperature and the hydrological cycle to rising atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations closer to observations.(Bold is mine.)
That is a complete understatement. Many readers will be familiar with the 'tropics troposphere of doom' such as this:
Another line of evidence that the oceans are the real climate regulator.
Thursday, April 2, 2015
Climate Sceptic on Twitter? Learn to PROTECT yourself.
It seems some on twitter have rediscovered how to get those they disagree with suspended and eventually banned on twitter again. This has happened before, it's something YOU can do something about personally.
This page is a discussion of how many people get suspended, a generic yet good guide for those new to twitter. http://www.skepticalartist.com/2013/05/12/things-that-can-get-you-suspended-from-twitter-for-and-how-to-get-your-account-restored/
This link walks through the steps in appealing a suspension: http://www.lucrazon.com/how-to-restore-suspended-twitter-account
This link explains how some people can try to maliciously get your account suspended/banned, and often succeed: http://blog.tweetsmarter.com/twitter-downtime/how-stop-people-from-getting-your-twitter-account-suspended-by-mass-action/
After losing 3 accounts in a few months, I finally found a list of 'rules' for posting, following them (mostly) has helped me keep my account posting now for over a year.
This page is a discussion of how many people get suspended, a generic yet good guide for those new to twitter. http://www.skepticalartist.com/2013/05/12/things-that-can-get-you-suspended-from-twitter-for-and-how-to-get-your-account-restored/
This link walks through the steps in appealing a suspension: http://www.lucrazon.com/how-to-restore-suspended-twitter-account
This link explains how some people can try to maliciously get your account suspended/banned, and often succeed: http://blog.tweetsmarter.com/twitter-downtime/how-stop-people-from-getting-your-twitter-account-suspended-by-mass-action/
After losing 3 accounts in a few months, I finally found a list of 'rules' for posting, following them (mostly) has helped me keep my account posting now for over a year.
Since Twitter has recently suspended both @SteveSGoddard and @Tan123 accounts, it may be that another group inimical to free speech and dissident viewpoints re Climate Science is working to kill dissent and dissenter's accounts. Hopefully this little guide will help you keep YOUR account safe and posting truth to the green power establishment.
Saturday, March 28, 2015
Earth Hour
Prove how strong your belief is by giving up your mansions, planes, living fossil free. @algore @tan123 @World_Wildlife @LiveEarth
— Ima Debatin' (@ImaBannedd) March 28, 2015
@BarryJWoods @ImaBannedd @algore @tan123 @World_Wildlife @LiveEarth they haven't turned the floodlights off at Holland v Turkey-The bastards
— Suresh Chadda (@SureshChadda) March 28, 2015
The hypocrite's vision of the future for all but themselves.
Zingggg!
don't you find it inconvenient that piomass is up? @JimHarris @RichardTol Mar 22 screencap. pic.twitter.com/eryKWXqZuh
— Ima Debatin' (@ImaBannedd) March 28, 2015
True. I like these: @tofrum @JimHarris @RichardTol pic.twitter.com/j0Rjfj1tuI
— Ima Debatin' (@ImaBannedd) March 28, 2015
Friday, March 27, 2015
Temperature reduction from de-carbonization, cross posted with permission.
Ed Hoskins: Temperature reduction outcomes from de-carbonisation
Posted: December 24, 2014 by tallbloke in Accountability, climate, governmentTags: co2, decarbonisation
Third in a trilogy of guest posts from Ed Hoskins. This one
looks at how much temperature would be reduced if we committed economic
suicide.
https://edmhdotme.wordpress.com/2014/09/13/the-diminishing-influence-of-increasing-carbon-dioxide-co2-on-temperature/
The table below shows the likely range of warming arising from these divergent (sceptical and IPCC) views, (without feedbacks, which are questionably either negative or positive: but probably not massively positive as assumed by CAGW alarmists), that would be averted with an increase of CO2 for the full increase from 400 ppmv up to 1000 ppmv.
The
results above for countries and country groups show a range for
whichever scenario of only a matter of a few thousandths to a few
hundredths of a degree Centigrade.
However it is extremely unlikely that the developing world is going to succumb to non-development of their economies on the grounds of reducing CO2 emissions. So it is very likely that the developing world’s CO2 emissions are going to escalate whatever is done by developed nations.
These figures show that whatever the developed world does in terms of decreasing CO2 emissions the outcome is likely to be absolutely immaterial.
The table below assumes that the amount of CO2 released by each of
the world’s nations or nation is reduced universally by some 20%: this
is a radical reduction level but just about conceivable.
The extreme, economically destructive and immensely costly efforts by participating western nations to reduce temperature by de-carbonization should be seen in context:
The committed Nations by their actions alone, whatever the costs they incurred to themselves, might only ever effect virtually undetectable reductions of World temperature. So it is clear that all the minor but extremely expensive attempts by the few convinced Western nations at the limitation of their own CO2 emissions will be inconsequential and futile[i].
Professor Judith Curry’s Congressional testimony 14/1/2014[ii]:
“Motivated by the precautionary principle to avoid dangerous anthropogenic climate change, attempts to modify the climate through reducing CO2 emissions may turn out to be futile. The stagnation in greenhouse warming observed over the past 15+ years demonstrates that CO2 is not a control knob on climate variability on decadal time scales.”
Professor Richard Lindzen UK parliament committee testimony 28/1/2014 on IPCC AR5[iii]:
“Whatever the UK decides to do will have no impact on your climate, but will have a profound impact on your economy. (You are) Trying to solve a problem that may not be a problem by taking actions that you know will hurt your economy.”
and paraphrased “doing nothing for fifty years is a much better option than any active political measures to control climate.”
As global temperatures have already been showing stagnation or cooling[iv] over the last seventeen years or more, the world should now fear the real and detrimental effects of global cooling[v] rather than being hysterical about limited, beneficial or now non-existent warming[vi].
[i] http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.fr/2013/11/lomborg-spain-wastes-hundreds-of.html
[ii] http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=07472bb4-3eeb-42da-a49d-964165860275
[iii] http://judithcurry.com/2014/01/28/uk-parliamentary-hearing-on-the-ipcc/
[iv] http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3436241/the-inescapable-apocalypse-has-been-seriously-underestimated.thtml
[v] http://www.iceagenow.com/Triple_Crown_of_global_cooling.htm
[vi] http://notrickszone.com/2010/12/28/global-cooling-consensus-is-heating-up-cooling-over-the-next-1-to-3-decades/
from Tallbloke's Talk Shop with thanks!
Temperature reduction outcomes from de-carbonisation
Ed Hoskins MAarch (Cantab) BDS (Lond).
To quantify what might be achieved by any political action for
de-carbonization by Western economies, the comparative tables below show
the remaining effectiveness of each 100ppmv tranche up to
1000ppmv, with the total global warming in each of the five diminution
assessments. These estimates depend on the calculations set out in the
following associated essay:Ed Hoskins MAarch (Cantab) BDS (Lond).
https://edmhdotme.wordpress.com/2014/09/13/the-diminishing-influence-of-increasing-carbon-dioxide-co2-on-temperature/
The table below shows the likely range of warming arising from these divergent (sceptical and IPCC) views, (without feedbacks, which are questionably either negative or positive: but probably not massively positive as assumed by CAGW alarmists), that would be averted with an increase of CO2 for the full increase from 400 ppmv up to 1000 ppmv.

However it is extremely unlikely that the developing world is going to succumb to non-development of their economies on the grounds of reducing CO2 emissions. So it is very likely that the developing world’s CO2 emissions are going to escalate whatever is done by developed nations.
These figures show that whatever the developed world does in terms of decreasing CO2 emissions the outcome is likely to be absolutely immaterial.

The extreme, economically destructive and immensely costly efforts by participating western nations to reduce temperature by de-carbonization should be seen in context:
- the changing global temperature patterns, the current standstill and likely impending cooling.
- the rapidly growing CO2 emissions from the bulk of the world’s most populous nations as they continue their development.
- the diminishing impact of any extra CO2 emissions on any temperature increase.
- normal daily temperature variations at any a single location range from 10°C to 20°C.
- normal annual variations value can be as much as 40°C to 50°C.
- that participating Europe as a whole only accounts for ~11% of world CO2 emissions.
- that the UK itself is now only about ~1.5% of world CO2 emissions.
The committed Nations by their actions alone, whatever the costs they incurred to themselves, might only ever effect virtually undetectable reductions of World temperature. So it is clear that all the minor but extremely expensive attempts by the few convinced Western nations at the limitation of their own CO2 emissions will be inconsequential and futile[i].
Professor Judith Curry’s Congressional testimony 14/1/2014[ii]:
“Motivated by the precautionary principle to avoid dangerous anthropogenic climate change, attempts to modify the climate through reducing CO2 emissions may turn out to be futile. The stagnation in greenhouse warming observed over the past 15+ years demonstrates that CO2 is not a control knob on climate variability on decadal time scales.”
Professor Richard Lindzen UK parliament committee testimony 28/1/2014 on IPCC AR5[iii]:
“Whatever the UK decides to do will have no impact on your climate, but will have a profound impact on your economy. (You are) Trying to solve a problem that may not be a problem by taking actions that you know will hurt your economy.”
and paraphrased “doing nothing for fifty years is a much better option than any active political measures to control climate.”
As global temperatures have already been showing stagnation or cooling[iv] over the last seventeen years or more, the world should now fear the real and detrimental effects of global cooling[v] rather than being hysterical about limited, beneficial or now non-existent warming[vi].
[i] http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.fr/2013/11/lomborg-spain-wastes-hundreds-of.html
[ii] http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=07472bb4-3eeb-42da-a49d-964165860275
[iii] http://judithcurry.com/2014/01/28/uk-parliamentary-hearing-on-the-ipcc/
[iv] http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3436241/the-inescapable-apocalypse-has-been-seriously-underestimated.thtml
[v] http://www.iceagenow.com/Triple_Crown_of_global_cooling.htm
[vi] http://notrickszone.com/2010/12/28/global-cooling-consensus-is-heating-up-cooling-over-the-next-1-to-3-decades/
from Tallbloke's Talk Shop with thanks!
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Pathetic. Farkin’ pathetic.
Judith, you tried this “new paradigm” hogwash before, most notably with Captain Ravetz and his Post-Normal Science Avengers explaining why this problem needs new science …
Climate, while it is a wickedly tough problem, does not require some new kind of scientific paradigm. It just requires equally tough, honest science, science of the plain old-fashioned variety that doesn’t start with the assumption that there is a problem and go haring off after an imaginary solution. You know … real science with things like the “null hypothesis” and transparency, the good old-fashioned science which far too many modern climate scientists do their best to ignore.
Regards,
w.
Thanks, Willis, Appreciate the permission to repost!